I AM THE GOOD THING IN FTJ'S LIFE
I am the good thing in Chiluba's life, said former MMD chairperson for women affairs Regina Mwanza yesterday.
In an exclusive interview, Regina, who divorced Eddie Mwanza of Indeni Oil Refinery last year, revealed that she got married to former president Frederick Chiluba on May 6, this year in Lusaka.
This was at Lusaka Boma local court under the customary law.
"Of course Dr. Chiluba has found a good thing according to the Bible," Regina said. "The Bible says he who finds a wife, finds a good thing.
So I am sure I am the good thing in his life and I would want to be that forever."
Chiluba, who was found relaxing with Regina in one of the living rooms, excused himself because he didn't want to witness the interview. "I will leave the two of you to talk because she may be jittery if I am around, so I will join you when you are through," said Chiluba before he went to watch soccer on Supersport. And Regina was not jittery. She answered every question with a lot of confidence. She also laughed at a number of questions which she said people were creating through speculation.
Thank you for this opportunity but I know it has been long overdue. People yesterday (Friday) received news about your marriage with the former president with a sigh of relief as you know you have made a few public appearances together and people had made conclusions already but were just wondering when the official announcement would be done.
Some people were saying you would do things like Nelson Mandela who lived quietly with Gracia Machel until Bishop Desmond Tutu encouraged them to marry officially because they were setting a bad example to the young people in the nation. So my first question is: Why did it take this long to marry when both of you divorced a long time ago?
Well, before I answer that question, I must say that you are most welcome to our home and we are very grateful that you were able to make time to come. I don't believe we took long to get married as you realise we both came from a background of divorce and divorce is a very traumatic situation, it is a very traumatic thing, especially where children are involved.
There are children involved in these marriages and in these divorces and you have to take them into account. You have to think of them before you jump into the next marriage. So we wanted first to look at those issues and make sure that the children were settled and ensure that they didn't feel divorced as well because when you divorce the father, children become a little bit confused, they don't know which way to go, they don't know whether to go to the mother or go to the father but we had to make them relax and feel that they were welcome in either home, either with their father or their mother.
And that is what we managed to do, we managed to relax our children. So only after that did we start thinking of getting married. And I had to make sure that I wasn't jumping into this marriage because of the divorce or for other reasons, I wanted to get into this marriage because I loved the man and that is what I wanted to do and that is what I wanted for myself. So we had to take time to do that.
For how long have you known each other now?
It depends on what you mean, whether politically or courting.
Okay, start politically and end with courting.
As a political leader, I have known him for a while since I was Constituency chairperson for Ndola Central where Hon. Eric Silwamba was my member of parliament then in 1993. I knew him not personally as such but just as my leader in the party. I can't even say we knew each other then because we would just welcome him and execute programmes for him and things like that. So I have known him quite a while in that area. As in courting (she laughs before proceeding with the answer) that's a good one. Not as speculated really. There were a lot of speculations. Our friendship was platonic for a long long time actually. It was just a working relationship. I knew him in that manner (courting) for the past two years really (since year 2000).
But there are allegations that your relationship started when both of you were married. I know you have touched on that but how true is that?
It's not true. I separated with my husband five years ago, I think. I moved to another house but before I moved to another house, we were staying in the same house. But maybe that is a little bit too deep. I think I better leave that out. But it had nothing to do with Dr. Chiluba or politics.
How have the children from both sides taken this marriage?
That's a difficult question to answer. From what we are seeing, they are settling down well but it is difficult to get into their hearts to really know what is in them but we are hopeful that everything will go well. They are trying to get to know one another, they meet.
This marriage has come at a time when Dr. Chiluba's life is in problems arising from politics. How does it feel to start the new marriage like this?
Well, I came into this marriage fully aware of what was happening. I married Dr. Chiluba for himself, for him. You know when you take vows, I am sure you are familiar with the vows, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, in problems as well. So really the problems have no bearing on our marriage. And when you are in problems like this, we have given ourselves to prayer, a lot of prayer. My husband is quite prayerful and this has lightened our burden quite a lot. I just love the man (she laughs) so this really will not affect our marriage.
How did you marry? Was it under the Act or it was customary?
We married under customary law, hoping to regularise as time goes on under the Act. We had our reasons for that.
What are those reasons?
Well, looking at the political environment and circumstances we sat down and thought of not publicising this whole thing. If we had gotten married under the Act, it would have meant that we advertise for 21 days and people are a little bit funny sometimes; they could have put a caveat or something and we wanted to avoid all those things. We said that it would maybe draw a lot of comments, maybe good comments, maybe bad comments so we decided that we just get married quietly.
And how much did Dr. Chiluba pay as dowry?
Oh, no. That's not a question for me to answer. That's for my parents. Surely, I wouldn't go snooping around asking how much did he bring?
Who did Dr. Chiluba see from your side and who was his bashibukombe?
His bashibukombe was a Mr. Katebe from Chingola, he is the district chairman in Chingola and he saw my aunt in Kapiri Mposhi, my father's sister and my mother's sister. Both my parents are dead but I have a foster mother, a Mrs. Musuka.
We heard that there was Matebeto for Dr. Chiluba last year in Ndola, who ate with Dr. Chiluba?
She laughs) Oh, God. Unfortunately that was pure speculation. There was nothing like that for the same reason I gave you that we didn't want to publicise this whole thing. But definitely there will be at an appropriate time and you will be invited.
How does it feel to be Mrs. Chiluba? A wife to the former head of state?
Well, the office of the president never ceases really. It has its own responsibility to shoulder even after someone leaves the office. There are responsibilities commensurate to his status. I am trying to learn to cope with those like we have streams of people here, almost everyday. It's a big challenge. You receive all sorts of people from grassroots to up there and you just have to adjust and know how to treat people. It's a big challenge but I am enjoying it.
People said you left your humble husband for the King and that you used to yearn for State House so much, how true is that?
Oh my God, that's not true. We had our own differences with my previous husband but I have a lot of respect for him and I know that he has a lot of respect for me. Our divorce was quiet, of course you picked it up but we decided to do it quietly because we have a lot of respect for each other, we knew what kind of differences we had. It has nothing to do with Dr. Chiluba, absolutely nothing. Of course there were speculations and I am sure you must have seen my previous husband sometimes standing for me but there was nothing between me and Dr. Chiluba that time. Yearning for State House? I would not yearn for State House because I knew that Dr. Chiluba was going to leave office at one time. State House does not make a person.
He didn't tell you about the third term?
I knew about the third term but not at one time did he ever tell me that he wanted to go for it. The debate was there but he never told me that he was going to stand so I knew it. And knowing him the way I do, when he keeps quiet about something, I knew that he was not going to stand. So the question of continuing in State House was completely out. State House has its own benefits. If there is no one that you love there, it's just a building, it's just a building.
At what point did your marriage with Mr. Mwanza break? Is it Dr. Chiluba who broke it?
I think I have already answered that. I said Dr. Chiluba had nothing to do with the breaking of my marriage. We had our own differences which I would not like to go into. We separated, I think this is now the fifth year.
How do you see the future of your new marriage? Where are you headed with these unresolved problems around Dr. Chiluba?
Well, like I have already said, when problems come you expect them to pass. The Bible says all these problems we are going through are but for a season. So I don't think we would go on and on with problems. But even if these problems continued really, it's Dr. Chiluba that I have married and I intend to have a successful marriage, very very successful marriage with him.
Are we expecting some formal function to officially celebrate your wedding?
Oh yes, when time comes. I cannot tell now but you will be informed.
Who is Regina? Tell us where you were born and when. How you grew up, your education background and about your family.
I was born in Ndola Central Hospital on 23rd November 1962. I think I had a very wonderful childhood. Both my parents were Christians and disciplinarians, especially my father. My father was a businessman. He had a small shop in Lubuto, that's where I grew up in Lubuto.
He had two trucks which were bringing in fish from Mpulungu and the other side. I started school in 1968 at Kabushi 'A' Primary School. I was there for two years and then I moved on to Dambo Primary School. I jumped a grade. I don't know whether they thought I was a little bit clever, I am not sure, or because the teacher was my aunt.
From grade two I went to grade four. After that I went to Ibenga Girls Secondary School in 1974. I was at Ibenga until 1976 when I went to the Convent. I finished school at Ndola Convent in 1978. Thereafter, I went to Luanshya Trades for a secretarial course. After that, I joined Indeco Properties here in Lusaka where I worked for a year and went back to Ndola and got married in 1983 to my previous husband.
I had three children with him, one is 17 - the girl, the boy is 15 and another girl is 13. That's Bwalya, Mando and Malama. I have two other children that I have kept from childhood, my late brother's children so I normally say that I have five children because I have kept those with me since both their parents died, that's Makasa and Lombe. In the family, there were seven of us. We lost the first born, Bernard.
The second born, Eric, is in America. He has been abroad for about 15 years now. The third born, Fred, is the father to those children that I live with. I was the fourth born. The fifth born Charles is in Ndola, he is running my farm. Before that he was running my other businesses. Then there is my sister, Catherine, my only sister.
The last one was Frank, the one who just died recently. My brother in America is an occupational therapist. He runs his own clinics and Charles used to run my businesses in Ndola. Some of them have closed down but some are still there. I am only left with two brothers now and one sister. My sister is running my shop and my salon. My brother Charles is running my farm.
Is it true that you have a child with Dr. Chiluba?
(She laughs) Oh my God, speculation, speculation, speculation and speculation again. You know it's so funny because one day I was in town and I was driving near the robots at Holiday Inn where those kids sell newspapers and I looked out of the window, I see this boy holding a paper, the pink one then; ah, ah: 'Regina Mwanza pregnant, what, what in Bahamas' or whatever I can't remember what was there. And I was with my daughter so she says 'Mummy what is this?'
So I asked the boy saying : iwe, walibeshiba aba balembele apa? (You, do you know this one who has been written about?) So the boy said ee, baliya, baliya. Niba Regina Mwanza aba. Baliya ku Bahamas (the boy said yes, that's Regina Mwanza, she is gone to the Bahamas). I said really, do you know her? He said ee twalibeshiba niba mukaba Chiluba aba (Yes, that's Chiluba's wife). And then I said but I am Regina Mwanza. The boy shook, he even dropped the newspapers. I even felt sorry for the boy but I just laughed it off because once you decide to be a public figure you should expect some of these things. And even your newspaper wrote that.
I don't know where you got that from. I would love to know really because when you were writing that, I think you wrote it a day after (George) Mungwa's death. I was at Mungwa's funeral and one boy from the Daily Mail came to me and said, 'ah but we thought you were in America'. I said I am here, very much here. I am not pregnant and I don't intend to be pregnant. The boy said say something but I said I don't intend to say anything. So where did you get that story? Malupenga: You will have to conduct an interview with me, so make an appointment and we will discuss that in detail. Today, it's me who is interviewing you.
But do you intend to have any children with Dr. Chiluba?
Well, we haven't thought about that yet. I think we are still enjoying the honeymoon.
Your close friends say Regina is now the driving force behind Dr. Chiluba, they say you are a very intelligent young lady and without you, Dr. Chiluba's current difficulties could have worsened. How true is that?
Well, I must first thank those friends of mine who think so highly of me. I am very grateful and I feel very humbled. But to say that I am the driving force behind Dr. Chiluba I think that's not true. You see in marriage, you complement one another, you don't drive each other. You can drive one into the ditch, you can drive one wrongly.
And you see, between me and my husband, I am a little bit more emotional. He is very restrained. He is very restrained to his credit and that is something I am struggling to learn from him. He is of a very sober character. He is one person who will not react almost to everything. He will be there, this morning me I pick up a newspaper almost flicking but he says no don't worry those are just papers, leave them.
He has been there for me and I am there for him. We are there for each other. Even you, can you imagine if you are going through these problems this man is going through and you are alone? I mean, you need somebody to share with, you need somebody to talk to. You need to be with somebody, so we have been there for each other. But being a driving force, no.
Talk about your political career. Have you also retired from active politics like Dr. Chiluba? And how, when and why did you join politics?
Well, my husband has retired and I am resting with him. We are resting at home.
What is your relationship with the former first lady Vera?
I have never really known her and there has never been a time when we have ever met to like exchange words or anything, no. And I never knew her before and I have never known her now. But I have no ill feelings towards her or any ill will, no.
Have you accepted Dr. Chiluba's (nine) children, I know you talked about that but there is Castro who is generally perceived by the public to be a lumpen?
(She laughs) I don't take kindly to calling my son that, a lumpen. Actually, Castro is a very good friend of mine. Two weeks ago he was here with us for a week and he is a very, very intelligent young man. If you sit down with him, he has very constructive conversations, you will be very surprised. He is extremely intelligent and we get on very well.
And the rest of the children?
Oh well, I get on with them well. They come here quite often. But since you particularly mentioned Castro, I had to expand on that.
What about Dr. Chiluba, has he accepted the children from your previous marriage?
Yes, very much. But I can't answer for him. The kids are actually here, most of them are in boarding. They just closed schools but they are free to either stay with their father or here, we don't have any problem. They just went out to the shops but they are here with us.
You used to go round with Dr. Chiluba on campaign trails, how did Mr. Mwanza take it? Wasn't this a source of problems in your marriage?
In fact, I never used to go round with Dr. Chiluba on the campaign trails. If you remember, during the time of the third term, that's when we had provincial conferences and during those provincial conferences that's the time you campaign for your position at the convention because after the provincial conferences then you go to the convention.
So I was gunning for the national chairperson, that's how come I was found in all those provincial conferences. I was campaigning and I had my own program. Dr. Chiluba had his own program, he had to open the conferences. So it's not like I went round with him. I didn't even go in the same car with him or did I travel in that motorcade.
He used to find us there because we could go there a week to campaign. I was campaigning for myself. And as for Mr. Mwanza, to his credit, Mr. Mwanza actually used to encourage me a lot in my political career. In that area, he was a good husband. So we didn't have any problems.
So much has been written and talked about your relationship with Dr. Chiluba, just how did you take some of the negative publicity about your relationship? And how did your families react to such publicity?
I will be very honest with you because I am human and definitely negative publicity will affect one somehow, it doesn't matter which way. And sometimes I was affected badly, sometimes I laughed it off. But as a public figure you expect things like that. You know, it's so strange because I remember when your paper carried a story about me being in China with Dr. Chiluba and [Sheikh] Chifuwe had come to Ndola during the time Dr. Chiluba was in China and he spoke to me. So when the story came out I said this is stranger than fiction because you found me and I spoke to you and you knew I did not go to China, so why did you write that? He said no, no, the story is from the courts (Chifuwe was not the author of that story). I said some of these things you would know that they are lying because that was pure lies.
But if you followed that story, there was a ZRP official who said at some campaign function that Dr. Chiluba was a womaniser who was flirting with a married woman Mrs. Mwanza and he deliberately included her in his entourage to China. And that gentleman appeared in court, that is where we picked the story from and reported. So Chifuwe was right with his explanation.
You reported and your reporting was okay, but your headline was bad. It was terrible and it affected my children. They were in school then and they knew I hadn't gone to China and the way you wrote it, oh. That's why I called Chifuwe because I was a bit surprised knowing that I had spoken to him and he knew that I didn't go, I was at home because he kept calling me oh, this or that and then to come and see the headline like that, surely there must be some...I don't know how to put it.
But the point is we didn't manufacture that, someone said those words and he appeared in court so we had the duty to inform members of the public on what was going on, don't you agree with me?
But you took advantage and used that to sell the paper. You certainly used that to sell the paper. Even if the story was coming from court, was it a big issue when one of you knew that it was not true? So why make it such a big issue? There was no need really, absolutely no need.
Okay, away from that, what are you doing currently?
You know my husband loves reading, he loves reading such that sometimes when I just came here I used to feel like he just probably didn't want to talk to me because he would read sometimes the whole day. He would have this book finish, take the other book. So I made a deliberate decision to go back to school. I am currently studying privately with some university in London through correspondence but I won't tell you which subject I am studying until I write the exams. These are some of the things I am learning from my husband. He loves praying, he is very very prayerful. I love praying too. That's what has seen us through all those problems we are in. But we are hopeful and prayerful that all these things will go away.
Anything you would want to say?
The other thing, a lot of people have wrong ideas about me wanting to marry Dr. Chiluba maybe for money or for whatever. You see, all my life I have been very hard working.
When I was working for Zamtel in Ndola, I started my business on the side. I worked for Zamtel until 1989. Even at the time I was working for Zamtel, I was doing some business on the side. I was buying groceries and cooking oil. You know that time, there were shortages of essential commodities. There were terrible shortages during those times of the vigilantes and I am sure you remember, I don't know whether you were grown up by then.
We talked about joining politics and that's what drove me to get into politics because one of my friends lost a sister who died whilst on the line. The girl collapsed because she was in that queue close to two days queuing up for cooking oil or bread, I can't remember correctly.
It became so bad and when I started business like buying and selling, I would go to Swaziland bringing shoes to sell to Indians. I would flood almost the whole Copperbelt with shoes.
Just going to Swaziland, you had to hide money I don't know where, I cannot explain but it is very embarrassing. And all those things just used to eat me up. And I said to myself 'when are we going to have change in this country?'.
So when the Movement for Multi-party Democracy started, I registered just as an ordinary member in Mitengo branch until 1993 when a situation arose. This was when we didn't have water for close to a month in that area.
I just woke up one day about 04:00 hours in the morning, fed up with the whole situation and I went to almost every door to wake up every woman.
I said this is not the way we should live. We must voice up and tell these people there is no way we are going to keep our homes like this. At that time our member of parliament Hon. Silwamba was still in Ndola. By 06:00 hours, we marched to Hon. Silwamba's home with those containers because I felt that since he was the MP he could have water in his house.
So we went and said we haven't had water for sometime and to his credit, he just looked at us and he said this is what I have been singing about to these people at the council so let's go to Chenda's home (the then town clerk).
And we decided to walk with him. We were very happy that our MP was able to join us, we walked to Chenda's home and he called the councillor. The councillor then was Dorothy Kazunga who was also very happy that we did what we did because she had been pushing for that. She had gone to almost every office. Our friends at the council sometimes would relax when they had water in their homes.
So we went to Chenda's home and arranged for a meeting with the Director of Water Works and after about two days, our MP and the councillor pushed and we had water. So Mrs. Kazunga was impressed with the way I organised the women and she encouraged me to stand for a position at the constituency. Remember I was at the branch level then. So I stood and I won. That's how I started rising. I rose from the branch to the constituency. I never went to the district. I just went straight to the province as a youth leader. After that, that's when I became MMD national chairperson for women's affairs.
From 1989, I have been in business. I was selling shoes and I was importing parts for motor vehicles from that time and then I decided to go into workers' cafeterias or canteens.
In 1990, I opened up a cafeteria at Contract Haulage and there you have captive market so you get cheques at the end of the month. I kept that and expanded when I opened another one at Drum and Can. I later opened another one at TAZAMA, from there I opened one at Zamtel. And at Zamtel, we were preparing five meals per day.
The latest one was the one I had at Bank of Zambia. At Zamtel, we would net almost K40 million per month. So surely, I could feed myself and I could do all that I wanted to do because from all those canteens we were getting cheques at the end of the month.
I have a shop where I sell clothes. All these clothes you are seeing on these pictures, I have them in the shop. I had a salon as well. And then I decided to venture into farming. Right now, I rear chickens.
Is it true that before you were married to Dr. Chiluba, Castro would walk into your boutique and pick one or two items saying 'my father would pay'?
No, it has never happened. Speculation, again.
Q: Some people say Mr. Mwanza never made any noise about you, in fact he surrendered you to Dr. Chiluba because Dr. Chiluba looked after him very well, he bought him vehicles and gave him a lot of money just to shut him up. How true is that?
Speculation, again. Oh, my God. You know, my previous husband has been driving vehicles from work. The RAV4 which they thought he (Chiluba) bought is for ZNOC (Zambia National Oil Company) which he drives up to now. And he bought himself a Lexus, you know these vehicles which are advertised on the internet, those for US $3,000 or US $4,000 which almost everyone can afford. He bought that and as a family from our businesses we bought the red RAV4 which is of course with the Task Force now. And we bought a few vehicles but second hand vehicles. Like some of the cars that they (Task Force) took, they had to tow them because they are old. But to think that Mr. Mwanza just gave me away is wrong. Which man would do that? Tell me, even for a million dollars which man would give away a wife just like that? Would you if you were paid? Tell me. Which man? No, we just had our own differences actually. We had our own differences and our parents came together and we discussed. The problems had been going on for a long time so we just could not go on. It was affecting the children but it had nothing to do with Dr. Chiluba, absolutely nothing.
How would you describe Dr. Chiluba as a leader and Dr. Chiluba as a husband?
Dr. Chiluba as a leader is a very patient man, very restrained like I said. He is not one that would react harshly to anything. Of course he is human, I cannot say there are no times when he would get upset. But I never really worked that closely with him like in Cabinet apart from him being my party leader. As a husband, he is a very caring person. He would always ask what you need, what you would want to do that day. Of course he has his own hobbies and I have mine. We are trying to marry the hobbies together. I never used to watch football but now I love football because of him. He loves watching football over the weekend. And he loves reading. There are certain films that I like watching. When I came here, he was a bit sceptical about that. He would say 'oh, no, no, let's not watch that film.' You know these little soaps like Generations, Isidingo, he doesn't like those things. He says ah, that's childish but now he has accepted, he would watch with me and we would laugh. Generally, he is a very nice person and I must say that I am blessed to be his wife because first and foremost he is very prayerful and very forgiving that sometimes I say, eh, this is too much. But he says no. He is very forgiving, that's my husband. It's good for all of us and I have to learn to get to that. He is forgiving and very giving. He is one person that wants to give all the time. He wants to give of himself, he wants to give of his time, he wants to give of anything that he has. That's him. Those are very rare qualities that he has. Of course, he is human he could have his own weaknesses.
Byline: Amos Malupenga
In an exclusive interview, Regina, who divorced Eddie Mwanza of Indeni Oil Refinery last year, revealed that she got married to former president Frederick Chiluba on May 6, this year in Lusaka.
This was at Lusaka Boma local court under the customary law.
"Of course Dr. Chiluba has found a good thing according to the Bible," Regina said. "The Bible says he who finds a wife, finds a good thing.
So I am sure I am the good thing in his life and I would want to be that forever."
Chiluba, who was found relaxing with Regina in one of the living rooms, excused himself because he didn't want to witness the interview. "I will leave the two of you to talk because she may be jittery if I am around, so I will join you when you are through," said Chiluba before he went to watch soccer on Supersport. And Regina was not jittery. She answered every question with a lot of confidence. She also laughed at a number of questions which she said people were creating through speculation.
Thank you for this opportunity but I know it has been long overdue. People yesterday (Friday) received news about your marriage with the former president with a sigh of relief as you know you have made a few public appearances together and people had made conclusions already but were just wondering when the official announcement would be done.
Some people were saying you would do things like Nelson Mandela who lived quietly with Gracia Machel until Bishop Desmond Tutu encouraged them to marry officially because they were setting a bad example to the young people in the nation. So my first question is: Why did it take this long to marry when both of you divorced a long time ago?
Well, before I answer that question, I must say that you are most welcome to our home and we are very grateful that you were able to make time to come. I don't believe we took long to get married as you realise we both came from a background of divorce and divorce is a very traumatic situation, it is a very traumatic thing, especially where children are involved.
There are children involved in these marriages and in these divorces and you have to take them into account. You have to think of them before you jump into the next marriage. So we wanted first to look at those issues and make sure that the children were settled and ensure that they didn't feel divorced as well because when you divorce the father, children become a little bit confused, they don't know which way to go, they don't know whether to go to the mother or go to the father but we had to make them relax and feel that they were welcome in either home, either with their father or their mother.
And that is what we managed to do, we managed to relax our children. So only after that did we start thinking of getting married. And I had to make sure that I wasn't jumping into this marriage because of the divorce or for other reasons, I wanted to get into this marriage because I loved the man and that is what I wanted to do and that is what I wanted for myself. So we had to take time to do that.
For how long have you known each other now?
It depends on what you mean, whether politically or courting.
Okay, start politically and end with courting.
As a political leader, I have known him for a while since I was Constituency chairperson for Ndola Central where Hon. Eric Silwamba was my member of parliament then in 1993. I knew him not personally as such but just as my leader in the party. I can't even say we knew each other then because we would just welcome him and execute programmes for him and things like that. So I have known him quite a while in that area. As in courting (she laughs before proceeding with the answer) that's a good one. Not as speculated really. There were a lot of speculations. Our friendship was platonic for a long long time actually. It was just a working relationship. I knew him in that manner (courting) for the past two years really (since year 2000).
But there are allegations that your relationship started when both of you were married. I know you have touched on that but how true is that?
It's not true. I separated with my husband five years ago, I think. I moved to another house but before I moved to another house, we were staying in the same house. But maybe that is a little bit too deep. I think I better leave that out. But it had nothing to do with Dr. Chiluba or politics.
How have the children from both sides taken this marriage?
That's a difficult question to answer. From what we are seeing, they are settling down well but it is difficult to get into their hearts to really know what is in them but we are hopeful that everything will go well. They are trying to get to know one another, they meet.
This marriage has come at a time when Dr. Chiluba's life is in problems arising from politics. How does it feel to start the new marriage like this?
Well, I came into this marriage fully aware of what was happening. I married Dr. Chiluba for himself, for him. You know when you take vows, I am sure you are familiar with the vows, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, in problems as well. So really the problems have no bearing on our marriage. And when you are in problems like this, we have given ourselves to prayer, a lot of prayer. My husband is quite prayerful and this has lightened our burden quite a lot. I just love the man (she laughs) so this really will not affect our marriage.
How did you marry? Was it under the Act or it was customary?
We married under customary law, hoping to regularise as time goes on under the Act. We had our reasons for that.
What are those reasons?
Well, looking at the political environment and circumstances we sat down and thought of not publicising this whole thing. If we had gotten married under the Act, it would have meant that we advertise for 21 days and people are a little bit funny sometimes; they could have put a caveat or something and we wanted to avoid all those things. We said that it would maybe draw a lot of comments, maybe good comments, maybe bad comments so we decided that we just get married quietly.
And how much did Dr. Chiluba pay as dowry?
Oh, no. That's not a question for me to answer. That's for my parents. Surely, I wouldn't go snooping around asking how much did he bring?
Who did Dr. Chiluba see from your side and who was his bashibukombe?
His bashibukombe was a Mr. Katebe from Chingola, he is the district chairman in Chingola and he saw my aunt in Kapiri Mposhi, my father's sister and my mother's sister. Both my parents are dead but I have a foster mother, a Mrs. Musuka.
We heard that there was Matebeto for Dr. Chiluba last year in Ndola, who ate with Dr. Chiluba?
She laughs) Oh, God. Unfortunately that was pure speculation. There was nothing like that for the same reason I gave you that we didn't want to publicise this whole thing. But definitely there will be at an appropriate time and you will be invited.
How does it feel to be Mrs. Chiluba? A wife to the former head of state?
Well, the office of the president never ceases really. It has its own responsibility to shoulder even after someone leaves the office. There are responsibilities commensurate to his status. I am trying to learn to cope with those like we have streams of people here, almost everyday. It's a big challenge. You receive all sorts of people from grassroots to up there and you just have to adjust and know how to treat people. It's a big challenge but I am enjoying it.
People said you left your humble husband for the King and that you used to yearn for State House so much, how true is that?
Oh my God, that's not true. We had our own differences with my previous husband but I have a lot of respect for him and I know that he has a lot of respect for me. Our divorce was quiet, of course you picked it up but we decided to do it quietly because we have a lot of respect for each other, we knew what kind of differences we had. It has nothing to do with Dr. Chiluba, absolutely nothing. Of course there were speculations and I am sure you must have seen my previous husband sometimes standing for me but there was nothing between me and Dr. Chiluba that time. Yearning for State House? I would not yearn for State House because I knew that Dr. Chiluba was going to leave office at one time. State House does not make a person.
He didn't tell you about the third term?
I knew about the third term but not at one time did he ever tell me that he wanted to go for it. The debate was there but he never told me that he was going to stand so I knew it. And knowing him the way I do, when he keeps quiet about something, I knew that he was not going to stand. So the question of continuing in State House was completely out. State House has its own benefits. If there is no one that you love there, it's just a building, it's just a building.
At what point did your marriage with Mr. Mwanza break? Is it Dr. Chiluba who broke it?
I think I have already answered that. I said Dr. Chiluba had nothing to do with the breaking of my marriage. We had our own differences which I would not like to go into. We separated, I think this is now the fifth year.
How do you see the future of your new marriage? Where are you headed with these unresolved problems around Dr. Chiluba?
Well, like I have already said, when problems come you expect them to pass. The Bible says all these problems we are going through are but for a season. So I don't think we would go on and on with problems. But even if these problems continued really, it's Dr. Chiluba that I have married and I intend to have a successful marriage, very very successful marriage with him.
Are we expecting some formal function to officially celebrate your wedding?
Oh yes, when time comes. I cannot tell now but you will be informed.
Who is Regina? Tell us where you were born and when. How you grew up, your education background and about your family.
I was born in Ndola Central Hospital on 23rd November 1962. I think I had a very wonderful childhood. Both my parents were Christians and disciplinarians, especially my father. My father was a businessman. He had a small shop in Lubuto, that's where I grew up in Lubuto.
He had two trucks which were bringing in fish from Mpulungu and the other side. I started school in 1968 at Kabushi 'A' Primary School. I was there for two years and then I moved on to Dambo Primary School. I jumped a grade. I don't know whether they thought I was a little bit clever, I am not sure, or because the teacher was my aunt.
From grade two I went to grade four. After that I went to Ibenga Girls Secondary School in 1974. I was at Ibenga until 1976 when I went to the Convent. I finished school at Ndola Convent in 1978. Thereafter, I went to Luanshya Trades for a secretarial course. After that, I joined Indeco Properties here in Lusaka where I worked for a year and went back to Ndola and got married in 1983 to my previous husband.
I had three children with him, one is 17 - the girl, the boy is 15 and another girl is 13. That's Bwalya, Mando and Malama. I have two other children that I have kept from childhood, my late brother's children so I normally say that I have five children because I have kept those with me since both their parents died, that's Makasa and Lombe. In the family, there were seven of us. We lost the first born, Bernard.
The second born, Eric, is in America. He has been abroad for about 15 years now. The third born, Fred, is the father to those children that I live with. I was the fourth born. The fifth born Charles is in Ndola, he is running my farm. Before that he was running my other businesses. Then there is my sister, Catherine, my only sister.
The last one was Frank, the one who just died recently. My brother in America is an occupational therapist. He runs his own clinics and Charles used to run my businesses in Ndola. Some of them have closed down but some are still there. I am only left with two brothers now and one sister. My sister is running my shop and my salon. My brother Charles is running my farm.
Is it true that you have a child with Dr. Chiluba?
(She laughs) Oh my God, speculation, speculation, speculation and speculation again. You know it's so funny because one day I was in town and I was driving near the robots at Holiday Inn where those kids sell newspapers and I looked out of the window, I see this boy holding a paper, the pink one then; ah, ah: 'Regina Mwanza pregnant, what, what in Bahamas' or whatever I can't remember what was there. And I was with my daughter so she says 'Mummy what is this?'
So I asked the boy saying : iwe, walibeshiba aba balembele apa? (You, do you know this one who has been written about?) So the boy said ee, baliya, baliya. Niba Regina Mwanza aba. Baliya ku Bahamas (the boy said yes, that's Regina Mwanza, she is gone to the Bahamas). I said really, do you know her? He said ee twalibeshiba niba mukaba Chiluba aba (Yes, that's Chiluba's wife). And then I said but I am Regina Mwanza. The boy shook, he even dropped the newspapers. I even felt sorry for the boy but I just laughed it off because once you decide to be a public figure you should expect some of these things. And even your newspaper wrote that.
I don't know where you got that from. I would love to know really because when you were writing that, I think you wrote it a day after (George) Mungwa's death. I was at Mungwa's funeral and one boy from the Daily Mail came to me and said, 'ah but we thought you were in America'. I said I am here, very much here. I am not pregnant and I don't intend to be pregnant. The boy said say something but I said I don't intend to say anything. So where did you get that story? Malupenga: You will have to conduct an interview with me, so make an appointment and we will discuss that in detail. Today, it's me who is interviewing you.
But do you intend to have any children with Dr. Chiluba?
Well, we haven't thought about that yet. I think we are still enjoying the honeymoon.
Your close friends say Regina is now the driving force behind Dr. Chiluba, they say you are a very intelligent young lady and without you, Dr. Chiluba's current difficulties could have worsened. How true is that?
Well, I must first thank those friends of mine who think so highly of me. I am very grateful and I feel very humbled. But to say that I am the driving force behind Dr. Chiluba I think that's not true. You see in marriage, you complement one another, you don't drive each other. You can drive one into the ditch, you can drive one wrongly.
And you see, between me and my husband, I am a little bit more emotional. He is very restrained. He is very restrained to his credit and that is something I am struggling to learn from him. He is of a very sober character. He is one person who will not react almost to everything. He will be there, this morning me I pick up a newspaper almost flicking but he says no don't worry those are just papers, leave them.
He has been there for me and I am there for him. We are there for each other. Even you, can you imagine if you are going through these problems this man is going through and you are alone? I mean, you need somebody to share with, you need somebody to talk to. You need to be with somebody, so we have been there for each other. But being a driving force, no.
Talk about your political career. Have you also retired from active politics like Dr. Chiluba? And how, when and why did you join politics?
Well, my husband has retired and I am resting with him. We are resting at home.
What is your relationship with the former first lady Vera?
I have never really known her and there has never been a time when we have ever met to like exchange words or anything, no. And I never knew her before and I have never known her now. But I have no ill feelings towards her or any ill will, no.
Have you accepted Dr. Chiluba's (nine) children, I know you talked about that but there is Castro who is generally perceived by the public to be a lumpen?
(She laughs) I don't take kindly to calling my son that, a lumpen. Actually, Castro is a very good friend of mine. Two weeks ago he was here with us for a week and he is a very, very intelligent young man. If you sit down with him, he has very constructive conversations, you will be very surprised. He is extremely intelligent and we get on very well.
And the rest of the children?
Oh well, I get on with them well. They come here quite often. But since you particularly mentioned Castro, I had to expand on that.
What about Dr. Chiluba, has he accepted the children from your previous marriage?
Yes, very much. But I can't answer for him. The kids are actually here, most of them are in boarding. They just closed schools but they are free to either stay with their father or here, we don't have any problem. They just went out to the shops but they are here with us.
You used to go round with Dr. Chiluba on campaign trails, how did Mr. Mwanza take it? Wasn't this a source of problems in your marriage?
In fact, I never used to go round with Dr. Chiluba on the campaign trails. If you remember, during the time of the third term, that's when we had provincial conferences and during those provincial conferences that's the time you campaign for your position at the convention because after the provincial conferences then you go to the convention.
So I was gunning for the national chairperson, that's how come I was found in all those provincial conferences. I was campaigning and I had my own program. Dr. Chiluba had his own program, he had to open the conferences. So it's not like I went round with him. I didn't even go in the same car with him or did I travel in that motorcade.
He used to find us there because we could go there a week to campaign. I was campaigning for myself. And as for Mr. Mwanza, to his credit, Mr. Mwanza actually used to encourage me a lot in my political career. In that area, he was a good husband. So we didn't have any problems.
So much has been written and talked about your relationship with Dr. Chiluba, just how did you take some of the negative publicity about your relationship? And how did your families react to such publicity?
I will be very honest with you because I am human and definitely negative publicity will affect one somehow, it doesn't matter which way. And sometimes I was affected badly, sometimes I laughed it off. But as a public figure you expect things like that. You know, it's so strange because I remember when your paper carried a story about me being in China with Dr. Chiluba and [Sheikh] Chifuwe had come to Ndola during the time Dr. Chiluba was in China and he spoke to me. So when the story came out I said this is stranger than fiction because you found me and I spoke to you and you knew I did not go to China, so why did you write that? He said no, no, the story is from the courts (Chifuwe was not the author of that story). I said some of these things you would know that they are lying because that was pure lies.
But if you followed that story, there was a ZRP official who said at some campaign function that Dr. Chiluba was a womaniser who was flirting with a married woman Mrs. Mwanza and he deliberately included her in his entourage to China. And that gentleman appeared in court, that is where we picked the story from and reported. So Chifuwe was right with his explanation.
You reported and your reporting was okay, but your headline was bad. It was terrible and it affected my children. They were in school then and they knew I hadn't gone to China and the way you wrote it, oh. That's why I called Chifuwe because I was a bit surprised knowing that I had spoken to him and he knew that I didn't go, I was at home because he kept calling me oh, this or that and then to come and see the headline like that, surely there must be some...I don't know how to put it.
But the point is we didn't manufacture that, someone said those words and he appeared in court so we had the duty to inform members of the public on what was going on, don't you agree with me?
But you took advantage and used that to sell the paper. You certainly used that to sell the paper. Even if the story was coming from court, was it a big issue when one of you knew that it was not true? So why make it such a big issue? There was no need really, absolutely no need.
Okay, away from that, what are you doing currently?
You know my husband loves reading, he loves reading such that sometimes when I just came here I used to feel like he just probably didn't want to talk to me because he would read sometimes the whole day. He would have this book finish, take the other book. So I made a deliberate decision to go back to school. I am currently studying privately with some university in London through correspondence but I won't tell you which subject I am studying until I write the exams. These are some of the things I am learning from my husband. He loves praying, he is very very prayerful. I love praying too. That's what has seen us through all those problems we are in. But we are hopeful and prayerful that all these things will go away.
Anything you would want to say?
The other thing, a lot of people have wrong ideas about me wanting to marry Dr. Chiluba maybe for money or for whatever. You see, all my life I have been very hard working.
When I was working for Zamtel in Ndola, I started my business on the side. I worked for Zamtel until 1989. Even at the time I was working for Zamtel, I was doing some business on the side. I was buying groceries and cooking oil. You know that time, there were shortages of essential commodities. There were terrible shortages during those times of the vigilantes and I am sure you remember, I don't know whether you were grown up by then.
We talked about joining politics and that's what drove me to get into politics because one of my friends lost a sister who died whilst on the line. The girl collapsed because she was in that queue close to two days queuing up for cooking oil or bread, I can't remember correctly.
It became so bad and when I started business like buying and selling, I would go to Swaziland bringing shoes to sell to Indians. I would flood almost the whole Copperbelt with shoes.
Just going to Swaziland, you had to hide money I don't know where, I cannot explain but it is very embarrassing. And all those things just used to eat me up. And I said to myself 'when are we going to have change in this country?'.
So when the Movement for Multi-party Democracy started, I registered just as an ordinary member in Mitengo branch until 1993 when a situation arose. This was when we didn't have water for close to a month in that area.
I just woke up one day about 04:00 hours in the morning, fed up with the whole situation and I went to almost every door to wake up every woman.
I said this is not the way we should live. We must voice up and tell these people there is no way we are going to keep our homes like this. At that time our member of parliament Hon. Silwamba was still in Ndola. By 06:00 hours, we marched to Hon. Silwamba's home with those containers because I felt that since he was the MP he could have water in his house.
So we went and said we haven't had water for sometime and to his credit, he just looked at us and he said this is what I have been singing about to these people at the council so let's go to Chenda's home (the then town clerk).
And we decided to walk with him. We were very happy that our MP was able to join us, we walked to Chenda's home and he called the councillor. The councillor then was Dorothy Kazunga who was also very happy that we did what we did because she had been pushing for that. She had gone to almost every office. Our friends at the council sometimes would relax when they had water in their homes.
So we went to Chenda's home and arranged for a meeting with the Director of Water Works and after about two days, our MP and the councillor pushed and we had water. So Mrs. Kazunga was impressed with the way I organised the women and she encouraged me to stand for a position at the constituency. Remember I was at the branch level then. So I stood and I won. That's how I started rising. I rose from the branch to the constituency. I never went to the district. I just went straight to the province as a youth leader. After that, that's when I became MMD national chairperson for women's affairs.
From 1989, I have been in business. I was selling shoes and I was importing parts for motor vehicles from that time and then I decided to go into workers' cafeterias or canteens.
In 1990, I opened up a cafeteria at Contract Haulage and there you have captive market so you get cheques at the end of the month. I kept that and expanded when I opened another one at Drum and Can. I later opened another one at TAZAMA, from there I opened one at Zamtel. And at Zamtel, we were preparing five meals per day.
The latest one was the one I had at Bank of Zambia. At Zamtel, we would net almost K40 million per month. So surely, I could feed myself and I could do all that I wanted to do because from all those canteens we were getting cheques at the end of the month.
I have a shop where I sell clothes. All these clothes you are seeing on these pictures, I have them in the shop. I had a salon as well. And then I decided to venture into farming. Right now, I rear chickens.
Is it true that before you were married to Dr. Chiluba, Castro would walk into your boutique and pick one or two items saying 'my father would pay'?
No, it has never happened. Speculation, again.
Q: Some people say Mr. Mwanza never made any noise about you, in fact he surrendered you to Dr. Chiluba because Dr. Chiluba looked after him very well, he bought him vehicles and gave him a lot of money just to shut him up. How true is that?
Speculation, again. Oh, my God. You know, my previous husband has been driving vehicles from work. The RAV4 which they thought he (Chiluba) bought is for ZNOC (Zambia National Oil Company) which he drives up to now. And he bought himself a Lexus, you know these vehicles which are advertised on the internet, those for US $3,000 or US $4,000 which almost everyone can afford. He bought that and as a family from our businesses we bought the red RAV4 which is of course with the Task Force now. And we bought a few vehicles but second hand vehicles. Like some of the cars that they (Task Force) took, they had to tow them because they are old. But to think that Mr. Mwanza just gave me away is wrong. Which man would do that? Tell me, even for a million dollars which man would give away a wife just like that? Would you if you were paid? Tell me. Which man? No, we just had our own differences actually. We had our own differences and our parents came together and we discussed. The problems had been going on for a long time so we just could not go on. It was affecting the children but it had nothing to do with Dr. Chiluba, absolutely nothing.
How would you describe Dr. Chiluba as a leader and Dr. Chiluba as a husband?
Dr. Chiluba as a leader is a very patient man, very restrained like I said. He is not one that would react harshly to anything. Of course he is human, I cannot say there are no times when he would get upset. But I never really worked that closely with him like in Cabinet apart from him being my party leader. As a husband, he is a very caring person. He would always ask what you need, what you would want to do that day. Of course he has his own hobbies and I have mine. We are trying to marry the hobbies together. I never used to watch football but now I love football because of him. He loves watching football over the weekend. And he loves reading. There are certain films that I like watching. When I came here, he was a bit sceptical about that. He would say 'oh, no, no, let's not watch that film.' You know these little soaps like Generations, Isidingo, he doesn't like those things. He says ah, that's childish but now he has accepted, he would watch with me and we would laugh. Generally, he is a very nice person and I must say that I am blessed to be his wife because first and foremost he is very prayerful and very forgiving that sometimes I say, eh, this is too much. But he says no. He is very forgiving, that's my husband. It's good for all of us and I have to learn to get to that. He is forgiving and very giving. He is one person that wants to give all the time. He wants to give of himself, he wants to give of his time, he wants to give of anything that he has. That's him. Those are very rare qualities that he has. Of course, he is human he could have his own weaknesses.
COPYRIGHT 2002 Financial Times Ltd.
(From The Post (Zambia) - AAGM)Byline: Amos Malupenga
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